Trials of Ascension
Lost Design - Dragon Helm

Pay Model Details

Discussion in 'News & Announcements' started by Brax, Nov 18, 2013.

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  1. Brax Forged Chaos

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    This post is outdated. Click this link to read our final decision on ToA's pay model.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Here are the preliminary details of the B2P with optional subscription pay model.



    You will be able to purchase the game at a relatively low price point. We won't settle on an exact price point until much closer to release. Best guesses at this point would be in the $25 range.

    The game purchase will come with a month of subscription.

    Once you've purchased the game, you can play it for as long as you like, with or without a subscription. Playing it without a subscription however will have the following restrictions:

    - You will be allowed to create and play human and raknar characters only. If there are other races on the account, they will be locked from play while the account is without a subscription.

    - Innovations cannot be discovered. You can still be given/interrogate innovations from others but you cannot discover any new ones without a subscription.

    - You cannot be a lord/lady or king/queen. Any character that is a ruler when their subscription expires will be removed from power and the replacement system initiated.

    - We are considering a skill cap for non-subscribed accounts but nothing is solidified at this point.


    You can expect the monthly subscription to be in the $10 range with volume discounting.


    Writs of Time
    We will continue to offer WoT's. They will cost more than a monthly subscription with a portion of the purchase going to charity.


    Permanent Race Access
    Once you've unlocked a race through in-game methods, this one-time purchase will allow you to play that race without a subscription.


    Custom Crests
    We are considering the idea of allowing you to design your own crest via a pre-built design tool or by working directly with Forged Chaos. The crest would be yours to put on any item in-game that accepts crests (banners, shields, chests, etc) and cannot be interrogated from you. Again, this is just a consideration at this time.


    Loyalty Program
    We will offer various non pay-to-win perks to those that have held a subscription for certain lengths of time, or as time limited offers. A few examples:

    1) An account with 6 months of subscription unlocks a jungle pattern raknar skin. The skin can be applied to any future raknar at character creation.

    2) Anyone with a subscription during the month of December will receive a treasure map.

    3) An account with 12 months of subscription gets a free t-shirt.

    These are all just examples. We will define the real list closer to launch.
    Grune, ThoranTW, neoporter and 8 others like this.
  2. Aria
    Hero

    Message Count:
    2,090
    I'm listening.
  3. Ildefonse
    Legend

    Message Count:
    4,001
    Sounds great to me!

    Additional loyalty idea:

    4) After a 6 months subscription period has passed, it will put your character on a list for GM's to create a small GM event around your character.
  4. The Sorceress
    Warlord

    Message Count:
    435
    Most of it sounds good, but don't make level restriction. Then the game will be likely that you need to pay to win, and that's not the way you want to go. I'm a little torn at the no innovations to the other players, as innovations was one of the things that really made the game. So taking innovations and only giving them to a special part of the community (Subscribers) may to me also seem a lot more restricting and cruel, since innovations is such a big part.
    I am fine with the races, and I see it as a good thing that you can unlock them even though you aren't a permanent subscriber.

    Suggestions to other things subscribers could get:
    a bigger chance <-- to get innovations then the b2p players. This will not ruin the game for the b2p players, but increasing the chance of getting innovations or decreasing it with b2p players is to me fine. As long as you don't remove innovations from b2p players since they have also bought the game.
    Make it so when races gets released there will have to pass x amount of time before any b2p players may have the slightest chance to unlocking them.

    You could also increase drop chances from some animals, or make it so hireing npcs merchants becomes cheaper if you're subscribing.

    But don't take away things from the b2p players, but add things that could be a + to the subscriber base, like increasing different things etc. Just don't make it pay 2 play or pay 2 win game. And please for god sake, no level restrictions.

    (And by level restricting i ofc. belive you're talking about leveling with skills?)
  5. Bruxail
    Warrior

    Message Count:
    3,126
    Sounds pretty good to me. The initial buy price seems a little low, but maybe that will help draw in more.

    I have 2 comments/questions.

    1) Permanent race access - Is that a one time purchase for that single race you found or you pay it and you get access to all races you find? I was thinking single race at first then I wasn't sure.

    2) No innovations - I think you are missing out on something here for the B2P players. If you unlock a single race, why not unlock an innovation? If you find one, you can tell them they have the option of buying it or letting it be lost again.
    sumdood, Sporkguy and BowenTheKotoc like this.
  6. Daggot
    Enforcer

    Message Count:
    241
    I see that truly developing a subscription model is a lot harder than game design. :woot: Although I like subscription model the most I am all with you guys if you feel it is important to twitch it a bit.

    I would like to leave some feed back re what you have come up with:
    • Do not make lvl cap for skills. It will be treated as unfair by those who bought the game and didn't want to subscribe.(I would have treated it unfair definitely because it feels like pay-to-win, mainly because I have paid for the game)
    • Completely banning those who do not pay subscription from innovations will not play any good. They will feel very limited and sad in the long run. I would like to suggest that you divide innovations into basic ones (the very similar innovations that in your design could be discovered by many people simultaneously and eventually become a norm for the whole server) and advanced. The basic ones could be discovered by everyone and the advanced only by those who pay sub.
    • Loyalty program - TBH it is the best idea to payment model that you have created for the whole MMO genre since UO introduced all those bonuses for the total time played. There are plenty of ideas that can fit in here and if you would create a topic on the forum, I am sure our joint hive mind will generate you a 1000+1 idea that you can select from (and maybe give some incentives to those, who have generated the ideas:D )
    • Item shop - I am all for its existence if it is well-thought and does not have any p2w items. I totally agree with you that increased speed of skill-gain can be considered as a p2w approach, however, something like new skins for your raknar/dragon/gryphon, or other similar custom thing can be very interesting to consider.
  7. Android
    Enforcer

    Message Count:
    4,552
    I like this model. Well thought out FC!
  8. GimiZigi Forged Chaos

    Message Count:
    551
    Really awesome news. Thanks for the details!

    I only have 2 concerns.

    1) Skill cap for F2P players. I think a lot of these people will see sub-players as a form of P2W which I can agree with, despite how negligible those stats can be. Having people spam "P2W" all over your game and its forums is not good publicity. I think this should be removed/substituted for something else such as an inventory size limit for F2P players as an example.

    2) No innovations for F2P - I think this is a good idea but would like to see this tweaked. Perhaps instead of completely barring them from innovations, maybe we can just put a limit to how many innovations they can have? I think this will act as a great way to motivate people to move to the subscription model a long with all of the other perks of being a subscriber.

    Other than that - everything else is awesome!

    Keep up the good work!
    Ildefonse likes this.
  9. Sarobando Well-Known Member

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    146
    Just don't turn into runescape okay?
    Fornax likes this.
  10. Android
    Enforcer

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    4,552

    That won't happen. Runescape is a themepark. ToA is not. I think the most accurate example of something similar would be like DC Universe online, where they offer several tiers of subscription.
  11. Falcon Active Member

    Message Count:
    395
    100% perfection! :woot::D:cool::woot:

    I'm against skill caps, though. Give them a fair shake. I'm glad you tabled that one.


    I like this, but I would say just have one of those GM Event runes show up in their inventory as a birthday present (account reaches 1 year). Certainly per account, not per character. We don't want to run the GMs ragged. Allow it to be transferable from character to character on the account.
    Fornax and Ildefonse like this.
  12. Sarobando Well-Known Member

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    146

    I know. It just seemed very similar to runescapes system. If it matters, I preferred the first may model of pay per day.
  13. Falcon Active Member

    Message Count:
    395
    I agree, but this system doesn't bar that from being added in the future. There are multiple ways to have a subscription, right now those are monthly and WoT. Day-by-day subscription could still be worked into this without unbalancing anything or needing to re-work mechanics.
  14. Zach Gilbert
    Enforcer

    Message Count:
    738
    Yay! so i wont have to pay a ridiculous amount of money for my crest. win.
  15. Ildefonse
    Legend

    Message Count:
    4,001
    Perhaps you're all right. A skill cap does sound a bit like p2w, and no access to innovations as well. Having watched the Extra Credits video on micro transactions, maybe it would be better to:

    - Not set a skill cap, but instead let subscribers get slightly faster skill gain? Then, non subscribers could invest time and still reach the same level. The subscribers would thus pay for convenience of raising skills slightly faster.

    - Don't completely block innovations, but as suggested, lower the chance of non subscribers discovering one and/or limit discoveries to basic innovations.

    - Have GMs start events only around subscribers. Non subscribers can still participate, but will have no/very low chance of triggering a GM event. Since GMs are paid a monthly salary, it's fair imo that subscribers who pay monthly benefit more from them.

    - Perhaps lower chance of finding magic symbols for non subscribers?

    These would be minor tweaks to the proposed system, which would make it a bit fairer for non subscribers, yet I think still provide enough incentives to subscribe.

    Lower chance of unlocking another race would probably be a bad idea, because you WANT them to unlock and pay for being able to play one. Only access to humans and Raknar is great, and additional race access as an incentive is good.
  16. Sarobando Well-Known Member

    Message Count:
    146

    This sounds nice, and all I really want is for everybody to want and play the game, this still sounds a bit to "Pay-2-Win" for my taste. Im not sure why, but it kinda leaves a sour taste. Subscription (In my opinion) Is by far the best pay model for ToA, just for the kind of game it is.
    Sporkguy likes this.
  17. BowenTheKotoc
    Hero

    Message Count:
    2,717
    I see a lot of people saying that setting skill-caps on non-subscribers makes the game P2W... I'm confused. I thought P2W was strictly a side-effect of cash shops, where op items are sold. Isn't it generally accepted and understood that those paying a subscription would have an advantage over those who don't?

    Regardless, I like this plan. I hope it helps with the marketing of the game.
    Fornax, Alonzo and Elyssia like this.
  18. Sporkguy
    Warlord

    Message Count:
    444
    This isn't really B2P to me. If you give a skill cap for B2P that means they can't access the full game (and it comes off as grindy if you pay - paying to grind). If you lock out innovations for non-subscribers that means you cut out one of the best features of the game. Restricting Lords doesn't seem like B2P either, and if your goal in the game is to rule a settlement or kingdom then for you it is P2W.

    Good ideas, I suggest not giving a skill cap. I don't know if these perks are enough to justify ten dollars a month, and it will be hard to feel good about paying a subscription for these perks, especially if you can purchase race unlocks.
    The Sorceress likes this.
  19. Ildefonse
    Legend

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    4,001

    I think that's the idea of it being an optional subscription. If you don't think it justifies paying $10 (and if you don't want to support FC by doing so), then it's your call of course and you don't have to get the subscription.

    I do agree now that you should probably still get the same skill cap and (limited) access to innovations, because indeed, you do buy the game.

    However, $10 per month sub for some added perks seems legit to me.
    Rugnar likes this.
  20. Sporkguy
    Warlord

    Message Count:
    444

    I like your ideas Ildefonse. I think the slightly slower skill gain and lower chance of innovations are a good idea, and worthy of consideration.

    You are definitely a bigger fan then I am. I am willing to contribute to the kickstarter, but once I am playing the game I want to feel satisfied with my purchases, and I am betting the majority will. To me the deal breaker could be the ability to purchase other races. Why pay monthly for something I can pay for once? (and for me is the best perk, the others might be worth about 5 bucks to me, two 2.49 purchases of skill gain and innovation access)
    The Sorceress and Ildefonse like this.
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